No Chinese Has Ever Been a Communist

Sir james, how can historical cities like Prague learn from the Seychelles’ tourism industry where you managed to go through a tremendous touristic boom without destroying the natural beauty of the islands?

Many people believe that things must remain as they are. But we must be realistic. The very same American tourists who visit the Seychelles and would originally like to stay in a coconut leaves’ hut are scared and unpleasantly surprised, when they encounter an annoying insect or lizard. We must take into account what an average visitor expects. The tourist is after all not an explorer who must put up with certain discomfort. What I see in Prague I admire: the architecture is preserved. It would not be prudent to interfere with original architecture. Nonetheless, inside a lot of modernization must take place. People got used to elevators, air conditioning, certain minimum comfort. It is about a balanced approach respecting as much as possible the natural and original beauty and a basic comfort to which we are now used to.

What can you as a Seychellois teach us about protecting biodiversity? How can you teach it to the people who have very different life experiences and perhaps they do not care?

We were lucky because of our geographic isolation. When we started to open up to tourism we were already sure we wanted to protect the natural beauty. Other nations succumbed to tourism and development and in the process damaged their landscape. When we started our development the world was already conscious of the fact that before you develop it is good to have a plan. All governments stuck to relatively good planning and zoning codes. The Marxist government of France-Albert Rene destroyed the rule of law, separation of powers, they started to confiscate property and were antibusiness. Therefore very few people wanted to invest in our country at that time. That changed in the 1990s after my return and my role as the agent of reconciliation was launched. Now we face the issue of rising expectations of our people. They want to travel. Some have become blasé about life in the Seychelles. I always say that if anybody complaints about their life, government should pay for their two-week trip to Mumbai. Then they would have some comparison.

Conservation is not easy. For millennia, people were used to the concept of the survival of the fittest. Our people have traditionally enjoyed two delicacies: turtle meat and birds’ eggs. During my time as Chief Minister I came under pressure to stop fishing and harpooning turtles. Also, the turtle shells were always used for craftsmanship—for boxes, combs and such. Politically it was difficult for me in the late 1960s after the pressure from conservationists to pass the protection laws. Few months after that I was invited to London by Lord Mayor. What was on the menu? Turtle soup!

Even now, I was in a restaurant in China and saw four turtles in the tank. A Chinese businessman ordered one. We let the turtle go but we have no control of Chinese fishermen. There must be international observance, otherwise rich Chinese eat at the expense of our poor fishermen. And we certainly shall start no war with China over turtles…

How do you manage these issues on a global level? Is what is called the global governance really possible?

It is possible but it is a different matter, how long will it take. We must always aim for the sky to get above trees. You may not get to the skies immediately but you will make progress. Human beings are very complex. We are shaped by many circumstances over which we have very little control. Nonetheless we all remain human and our aspiration is to be as happy and comfortable as possible. In our endeavors we must look at our decisions with realism and maturity.

I was born in 1939 and a bit after my birth churches were ringing their bells. My mother joked that they were announcing my arrival but in fact they were announcing the start of the Second World War. I am 74 and bells are still tolling, there are still wars. We have not learned very much. Most politics is dominated by national, not global interests. I am a global citizen because I feel we are all connected, we can communicate instantaneously.

How seriously do we take the issue of the global climate change? For you, coming from an island in the Pacific, this issue must resonate especially strongly…

We must take it even more seriously. Nations make commitments at international conferences, but when it comes to implementing them, they fail. We have big, granite islands in the Seychelles, and small, corral islands. The big ones are not that affected, but atolls and the small ones are threatened by rising tides and tsunamis. There is a beach on which I played as a kid, we played soccer. Now the beach has narrowed and the tide almost covers it. The tide is higher and higher.

Small nations like Seychelles must be very active on this issue and very knowledgeable also as tackling the global warming involves influencing other nations well-being.

Your thinking is marked by a global perspective. How have you arrived at it? Is it a matter of temperament, experience or education?

I was deposed from the Seychelles’ Presidency in a Marxist coup in 1977 when I was in London. I had worked very hard to put the Seychelles on the map. Before I was President, I was Chief Minister for five years and five years Prime Minister. After the coup, I realized I will not be allowed to return home for a long time. Later I told the coup leader, France-Albert Rene: You have taken away the Seychelles but given Jimmy the world.

The chief, prosaic question then for me was to maintain my living standard. In life what you don’t know you don’t miss. But you get used to certain standard and when you do not have it you are going to miss it.

I have made friends in many parts of the world. I realized that if I asked some of them for money, perhaps once they would oblige but not the second time around. However if I enabled to them to make some money there would be no reason for me not to take a success fee. I started promoting joint ventures and transfer of technologies. My friend Lars-Eric Lindblad of Lindblad Travels, the father of ecotourism, the man who opened up the Galapagos and Antarctica to the world, told me that I could use any cabin on his cruise ships in exchange for lecturing there. I started visiting the South Pacific and other parts of the world. So my global perspective was in a way forced on me by circumstances.

Subsequently I became involved in many peace-oriented organizations, which took me to many places. Last year a travel magazine in Tunisia wrote I was the 24th most traveled person in the world.

When you were young on your travels you made sure you did not visit just conference venues and fancy resorts but also ghettoes and slums. Are you not removed from that experience?

Not at all. Some organizations I am involved with are focused on alleviation of poverty. The World Future Council with its headquarters in Hamburg tries to give voice to the voiceless. It also deals with issues like the global climate change. I am also the founding member of the Institute of Culture and Diplomacy based i Berlin. We promote soft power. We do not believe that there is victory in war anymore. Times look for changes in mentality if we are to improve the world. The important concept facilitating my work here is peace of mind.

Something you also write about in your poetry.

Yes. You can have your bed made of gold but if you cannot sleep, and this fellow who sleeps down on the floor can, he has better life than you. The time has come for us to alter our perspective. For too many years an average individual has been drawn to believe that if you make a lot of money you achieve happiness. This rich American I know is looking for a better life among the fishermen in the Seychelles or seeks out a spiritual elevation with a guru in India. I said that the UN should not just pursue its development plans but also contentment plans that would make people more happy and content.

The other day I was having dinner with the Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal of Saudi Arabia, one of the wealthiest men in the world. He owns and co-owns Four Seasons Hotels, Canary Wharf in London, Citibank and many other pieces of property. He arrived with the entourage of some twenty media people. After the dinner I was reflecting on this. Who is happier? He, or I in my carefree ways, with my ability to move without security? Peace of mind must be cultivated. If you live with anxiety, if you have reactive mind, you cannot be happy.

You write about Earth citizenship. Do you consider yourself as Earth citizen?

Yes I do. It is sometimes spoken of global village. We must not make our world into a village. As the world shrinks we must become bigger, in our hearts bigger. I also believe that nobody should have a monopoly on a philosophy of happiness. Let us consider an African who lives in a village in Africa. Every day he watches the sun go down and moon rise. Then CNN arrives and he suddenly sees the rich world, skyscrapers, and gets the notion that if you live on the 50th floor you live nearer to heaven. He does not realize that you have to take a lift. You may wait a long time for it. At night you might be woken up by a fire engine, and your children may not find a playground nearby. The reality of the situation must be judged in its fullness. Before Africa embarks on a lifestyle of developed nations Africans should think twice if this brings them happiness. Yes, we must close the gap between the rich and poor, but we must also speak with the poor people who live their simple lives and tell them that there is quality in simplicity.

There was a time when the boat people were welcome after arriving in Australia… or in New York immigrants were welcome with a music band. People were celebrating their courage, their bravado to cross the ocean and to arrive. Today this attitude is gone. New arrivals are locked up, sent away.

You had been active in regional African politics in the 1960s and 1970s. Where is Africa headed now?

In terms of land and natural resources there is no question that Africa is the continent of the future. There is concern now over the Chinese who have been penetrating Africa in a clever political and business way recently. Lots of infrastructure is to be built there. Recently I was in Australia where the government adopted an austerity budget. The only area with an increase was their funding and investment in Africa. Most of that focused on mining technology. Chinese are not interested in democracy and have no colonial baggage. They just want the natural resources, to bring them home. They are far more important economically for Africa than anyone else is.

Your father was Chinese. What do you think of the rise of China? How does it look from your corner of the world?

Entrepreneurs are not just money makers but they should also be promoters of social justice. All the Chinese who have been indoctrinated with socialist economics suddenly turned around and became capitalist agents. Really?

No, in my view no Chinese has ever been a communist. The biggest fraud China has committed was to pretend that they were communist. Chinese will, of course, never espouse La Democratie Americaine. They subscribe to the notion, who pays the piper calls the tune: Let’s collect as much money as we can and then we will control leaders of so called democratic nations.

That is pretty pessimistic.

It is realistic. Chinese will go to their businesspeople and ask—do you want democracy and be bankrupt as America is? We do not live in a fair world. So many fingers can be pointed at what is going on in the United States too. The most important American industry is the armament industry. Thirty times more money is being spent in the world on weapons than on human development.

I had a conversation with a Chinese manager the other day and we were talking about the admiration in the West of what China has been able to achieve in the last twenty years. It is simply amazing. But I also told him about the anxiety about the rise of China. And he said: Look, do you think that we would want to start a war after living so long in poverty and destitution and after now achieving certain standard? It is we the Chinese who wear the designer labels today. It sounded persuasive to me.

You have moved from being a politician to being a statesman. Coming from a very small nation, was this fact an obstacle, or rather valuable perspective that people from large nations lack?

Politicians’ main interest is getting re-elected. Statesman is not always thinking of the next elections. The world today needs more statesmen than politicians. Far too many failed lawyers become politicians.

As a young man I was influenced by two civilizations, the French and British. Till this day my French is better than my English. Furthermore we were Roman Catholics and our priest came from Switzerland and was teaching us more songs about mountains than the sea. As a very young man I knew what the Chinese were about, what Armenians were about, what Americans, French and British were about. That was a privileged vantage point. Certainly someone from a landlocked country could not have had that experience.

In fact no country is “small” when it is surrounded by ocean. You think geopolitically. Islands situated in the Pacific Ocean, like the ones in the Seychelles, can possibly become unsinkable launching pads for missiles. Many people do not realize that most of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan has in fact been waged from the base on the Diego Garcia Island. Small does not mean we do not have a voice, especially in today’s media age.

Today you can come from anywhere. If you have something to contribute and it makes sense people will listen and use their own judgments. That is why I like the concept of global citizenship.